So this is a continuation of the conversation I cut and pasted into my previous post, Out of the Republican Closet: A Response. The conversation delves further into this homophobic douchebag’s delusions of grandeur. I am not mentioning his name this time. Not because I want to protect him, but because I want to minimize any traffic he gets to his blog. Here is our continued exchange, uncensored except for where I corrected some of my typos:
Let me expose your glaring error. Jesus is the eternal God. He even claimed to be so “Before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58. He was God before time began. His words are the revealed words of the Old Testament.
His words are the revealed words of the New Testament. Matthew 15:19-20. Jesus condemns “porneia” which is the Greek work that includes ALL sexual deviances, like adultery, homosexuality, bestiality, pedophilia, necrophilia, etc. Jesus said porneia is what defiles a man, the evil within his heart defiles a man. So, Jesus did condemn homosexuality in the “red letters.”
You keep making this argument easier and easier for me. Wow.
1) So your position is now that Jesus is the eternal God, and it is his words that are “revealed” in the OT. Okey-dokey. So you’ve painted yourself into a corner with all of the other activities prohibited in the OT. You fundies can’t keep equivocating on this. Either the OT rules no longer apply, or they do. Pick one. But if they still apply, they apply to you as well.
2) I notice you don’t bother addressing the way both the OT and NT address women. Do you believe women should be allowed to speak in church or leave their homes without their hair covered? These are NT rules, so–if you don’t believe they apply–please explain.
3) You also ignored what I said about divorce. Please explain why you fundies aren’t out in force trying to end divorce? Why isn’t that on any state ballot initiatives? Hmmm? The bible and Jesus himself expressly forbid divorce. So how do you explain the morality of your fellow fundies who are divorced and remarried?
4) If you really see no difference between consenting adult gay relationships and beastiality, necrophelia, and pedophelia, then that really is all anyone needs to know about you. Really? My partner and I–in a committed monogomous four year relationship–are the same to you as child molesters and people who have sex with animals? If you honestly don’t see a difference there, you’re an asshole.
Like I said. Just admit that gay people ick you out and you just don’t like us. That’s the real issue here. The fact that you people go to such great lengths to explain why the homosexuality issue in the bible is clear and absolute, yet spend paragraphs explaining why all the rest of the stuff in the bible is up for interpretation, makes it clear.
Just admit that you hate gays and we’ll call it a day. But don’t invoke the name of your God to justify it.
Your comment on Sodom and Gomorrah seems to be an attempt at a strawman argument. I never brought it up. You did. But you never mentioned how it doesn’t apply.
Jesus Christ is the eternal God. He is the Word that created everything. He did not make his appearance in history at the beginning of the New Testament. The Old Testament are his revealed words. When Jesus established the eternal MORAL law, he condemned sexual sins, including homosexuality. When Jesus established the CEREMONIAL laws for the nation of Israel, he was using those laws as an example of how it is impossible for us to be holy and clean 100% of the time. When He came to earth to fulfill the entire law for us, we no longer needed the example of the CEREMONIAL law, but the MORAL law remains.
It takes study, not feelings, to understand the nuances.
I understand the nuances, dear. I can quote scripture to you until the cows come home. But your persistent invocation of the same tired argument while ignoring all of my other points makes this abundantly clear: you dislike gay people. Period.
You insist that Jesus is the eternal God and use that to explain the OT verses that validate your hatred for gays, but then claim the rest of it is just “ceremonial” diet restrictions and that only the “moral” law remains. How convenient for you! If you don’t care for a rule, you can claim it is just a ceremonial restriction. If it is a rule you can use against someone else, then it is moral rule and must he upheld. That really works out well for you then, doesn’t it?
Except you pulled the argument out of your tookus. All of those rules are right alongside each other in Leviticus. The rules about shellfish, pork, and gay sex being abominations are in the same handful of verses. Nowhere else in the bible does it indicate that some of it is ceremonial only while the rest of it is “morality.” That’s just part of the mental gymnastics you are inflicting upon your brain, to try to justify your way around picking and choosing scriptures to justify your own prejudices.
You still ignore the bits in the NT about divorce and women, but I’m sure you’ll make up some whacked out bit of hooey to justify yourself and your fellow fundies there too.
Bottom line? You hate gays, can’t admit it, and want to distort scripture to validate your own preconceived notions of morality and what you think is “icky.” I just wish you could admit it. But you can’t, and anything I have to say will just be met with more stubborn ignorance.
You brought up S&G, by the way. And clearly you didn’t read my article about it.
Are you really that obtuse? The moral laws of the OT apply. The ceremonial laws do not. You have reached a false conclusion “If some of them apply, all of them apply.” No, the ones that apply still apply. The ones that don’t apply do not.
I do believe in different spiritual roles for men and women, like I do not believe women should be pastors. God did not subjugate women in station, only in authority. God placed men as the head of the house AFTER the Fall. Now that sin rules the world, God established a system of government (family government, church government and community government) to stem the tide of evil sin brings. Women have the same equal station as men. We are all created in God’s image.
I hate divorce just like God does, but if you actually read the scripture you see that God “permits” divorce because of the hardness of men’s hearts. The Church should be combating divorce, but right now the onslaught of wickedness is really coming from an outspoken and agenda driven homosexual behavior lobby.
God does not see a difference in homosexuality and bestiality. Both are sin. Both deserve death. Both are eternally fatal. BUT they don’t have to be. Jesus died on the cross to forgive sins of those who repent.
Homosexual conduct sickens me. But I realize that people may not be able to help what sins tempt them. The sin I am tempted with most, however, sickens God just as much. I struggle with lusting after women not my wife. Jesus calls that adultery. I realize my weakness and realize that God’s standard is not for me to be comfortable with my sin, but to rely on him that he will give me the strength to grow out of my sin and live freely.
God does not want me to be identified with my sin. He came to set the captives free.
Nope, not obtuse. I read you loud and clear. The laws you don’t like are just “ceremonial” and can be ignored. The laws that justify your bigotry against gays are about “morality” and are not up for interpretation. That is how you weasel your way around cherry-picking scriptural passages.
Got it. No need to argue on that further, because your delusions of grandeur make it clear that you think you have some special insight into scripture that many progressive thinking biblical scholars lack.
You never answered my question about women. I’ve asked you directly a few times: Do you believe women should be able to speak in church? Do you believe they should be able to go outside without their hair covered? The bible makes these issues clear, so I would be interested to know where you stand. I am willing to guess you think it is okay for women to speak in church and show their hair in public, and will now form yet another “That rule is up for interpretation and shouldn’t be taken literally, but the homosexuality issue is crystal clear and not up for debate” argument you’ve been using all along.
You totally sidestepped my divorce question, too. I gave you a passage showing unequivocally that Jesus himself said divorce was wrong, and that anyone divorcing and remarrying is committing adultery. I ask again: why are fundamentalists not calling for a constitutional ban on divorce? Why are you not lobbying your state governments for anti-divorce statutes? The bible and Jesus are crystal clear on this issue.
Oh, but yeah. You straights have a 50% divorce rate, so making divorce illegal would be an inconvenience to you. So again, you are going to side-step this argument, claim the bible is up for interpretation, and make concessions for some divorces and re-marriages being okay. But the homosexuality issue is still clear! No room for interpretation there.
This following statement sums up all anyone needs to know about you: “God does not see a difference in homosexuality and bestiality. Both are sin. Both deserve death. Both are eternally fatal.”
There is nothing more to discuss here. You just conflated my committed relationship with a consenting adult human male with bestiality, and then said I deserved death. Thank you for confirming what I’ve believed all along: that you’re a hateful bigot and an asshole. I don’t need to be diplomatic with anyone who spouts this nonsense.
Now run along back to your circle of deluded sycophants who will praise you and tell you what you want to hear. You can sit around and reassure each other that hating fags and dykes is okay. You can reassure each other that the bible is crystal clear where you need it to be (hatred of gays), but up for interpretation when confronted with anything that actually applies to your own life.
No need to respond to me any further. I know your game. And since you compared my relationship to bestiality and said I deserved death, I have zero respect for you or anything you have to say.